On the Thursday, November 27, 2025 episode of The Excerpt podcast:Dr. Jane Goodall reshaped our understanding of the natural world. Author Douglas Abrams, who co-wrote "The Book of Hope" with Jane Goodall, joins USA TODAY's The Excerpt to reflect on her legacy of hope.
Hit play on the player below to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript beneath it.This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
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Dana Taylor:
In 1960, 26-year-old Jane Goodall arrived with her mother at Gombe Stream Chimpanzee Reserve in Western Tanzania. What followed was truly a story for the ages. Her work transformed how humans interact with and understand the natural world. Dr. Jane Goodall passed away last month at the age of 91. Hello and welcome to USA TODAY's The Excerpt. I'm Dana Taylor. Today is Thursday, November 27th, 2025. Dr. Goodall will be remembered as an ethologist and conservationist, whose life and work not only made an indelible mark on our understanding of chimpanzees and other species, but also of humankind and the environments we all share. Joining me to discuss her legacy of hope is author Douglas Abrams, who co-wrote the Book of Hope with Jane Goodall. Thank you so much for taking the time to join me, Douglas.
Douglas Abrams:
Great to be here with you, Dana.
Dana Taylor:
Jane Goodall made groundbreaking discoveries in the natural world, and I'm most moved by how she documented the rich emotional dynamics of chimpanzees. It required an extraordinary level of patience and respect. What resonates with you most when you think of Jane Goodall's work?
Douglas Abrams:
I should say, it was an extraordinary privilege to be able to work with Jane and to learn both about her pioneering discoveries with chimpanzees and her understanding of how we are really part of a much larger tree of life and deeply related to these simian cousins. But also what we were particularly looking at was, her discoveries for humanity and who we are, and that was really what her mentor, Louis Leakey sent her into the bush to find out was, not just what chimpanzees were like, but what chimpanzees might reveal about us.
Dana Taylor:
Can you briefly share some of her early work in Gombe and where that work stands today?
Douglas Abrams:
Yeah. She was one of the first to really discover that chimpanzees use tools like humans use tools, which was an enormous breakthrough in our understanding of the intelligence and the creativity and the ingenuity of chimpanzees and how we were not the only species that might use tools. She also discovered that chimpanzees had emotions, they had personalities. She really broke down this division that we had created between us and the rest of the natural world and help us see ourselves much more on a continuum of intelligence and life and love, and not as separate from the rest of the natural world.
Dana Taylor:
Douglas, her work, of course, radically changed our understanding of animals. That's one of the gifts that she gave the world. How would you say her work in Gombe informed her worldview and led to her legacy of hope?
Douglas Abrams:
Jane realized in Gombe that, and as she was traveling throughout Africa, that the natural environments where the chimpanzees were living were being destroyed. And I think she saw much earlier than most, the kind of environmental destruction that was happening not just to animal habitats, but also for human life on this planet. And she left Gombe, which was a very difficult decision for her, and decided to travel around the world. But ultimately when I met her, she was doing 300 days a year trying to spread a message of conservation and a message of hope, not only for chimpanzees, but for all life on our planet.
Dana Taylor:
She believed hope was or is a responsibility requiring action. And she also knew the power of small actions. How have those messages resonated with young people?
Douglas Abrams:
Well, she created something called Roots & Shoots, which is the kind of Boy Scouts and Girl Scouts for young people, because she was very committed to helping young people understand the importance and the fragility and the treasure of the natural world. She really did believe quite profoundly that there is no hope without action. And that we can't have any sustained sense of hope, it's just wishful thinking or fantasy if we're actually not willing to take action and make a difference. And that was what she encouraged us to do, was to really get active in preserving the things that we love and protecting our families and our communities and our world.
Dana Taylor:
In 2020, she launched the Jane Goodall Hopecast, went on to host the podcast for three years. She really worked and remained engaged her entire life, didn't she?
Douglas Abrams:
Amazing. I mean, in her nineties, she was still traveling. She actually left us while she was in southern California, getting ready to give another talk. And she was such an inspiration of just passionate engagement, just what being an elder can look like, with the kind of vitality and passion that she brought to everything. And her message of hope was really quite profound. She taught me that hope is not just kind of wishful thinking as I kind of thought it was, let's hope for the best. That it was actually a human survival trait, without which we perish. And I think, that understanding, that hope is what drives us, what gives us a future and helps us to get active in our life. And whether it's for our own individual goals or for our collective survival, it's hope that is crucial.
Dana Taylor:
As you've said, Dr. Goodall was a voice of compassion for animals and the planet. She was an incredible storyteller, but do you think she felt her message was being heard?
Douglas Abrams:
It's funny how you say she's an incredible storyteller, which she was, but we had a little bit of an arm wrestle in the book about how many stats and facts we should put in. And I, assuming that, as a scientist and naturalist, she would want a lot of facts and statistics. She said to me, "Forget all of that. The only thing that people remember is the stories." And so, we really tried to fill the Book of Hope with stories that could inspire people in their own lives and help them find hope when they were having a hard time to find that hope personally or collectively. And obviously, at this time in our world, so many people are feeling hopeless about the direction that we are going in our countries and in our world.
Dana Taylor:
You mentioned elders, and I want to turn now to another one of your books, the Book of Joy with the Dalai Lama and the late Desmond Tutu. How did that book come about?
Douglas Abrams:
It's a fun story because I had the great privilege of working with Desmond Tutu for over 20 years and going to all of his big birthdays in South Africa. And we were at his office and we were there with the chairman of the Dalai Lama Foundation who turned to me and said, "What do you think about the Dalai Lama and Archbishop Tutu doing a book together?" And we were chewing on tuna fish sandwiches and I turned to Archbishop Tutu and I said, "Hey, Arch, you want to do a book with the Dalai Lama?" And he said, "I'd do anything with that man." And so, he wrote to the Dalai Lama. The Dalai Lama, when I met him in Washington D.C. said, when he got the letter about doing the book together, he got a little excited. And I guess if you're making the Dalai Lama a little excited, you're doing something right.
And so, it was very challenging actually to bring these two world leaders together for a week, because the Dalai Lama was not allowed to go to South Africa because of pressure from China. Archbishop Tutu was dealing with prostate cancer which had returned. And so, we finally were able to fly Archbishop Tutu to Dharamshala for a week of conversations, which we knew would be really probably the last time these two great friends and global leaders would be able to see each other. And it was this magical week of dialogue on, how do we have joy in the face of adversity, which was what we tried to bottle up and give the world in The Book of Joy.
Dana Taylor:
So, in the book, there is a focus on the nature of true joy. What was one thing they shared with you about creating a foundation for lasting happiness?
Douglas Abrams:
Yeah, it's such a great question. They really helped me see that, first of all, joy and sorrow are part and parcel of the same coin. You can't have joy without the sorrow. And when you to tap down your tears, you also lose your laughter. That was very profound for me. They also gave us eight pillars of joy. They explained that trying to chase after happiness... In our Declaration of Independence, we have the pursuit of happiness as one of our goals. But they said that, trying to pursue happiness is the fastest way to missing the bus. And that in fact, there were these eight other principles, pillars of joy, that were essential for any kind of lasting joy.
Dana Taylor:
And was there something about the obstacles of joy that really stayed with you?
Douglas Abrams:
In the book, we talk about the true nature of joy. We talked about the obstacles to joy, and then these eight pillars. We can talk more about the pillars, but the obstacles of joy are everything from fear and anger and loneliness and despair, to envy, rage. And so, we talked about each of those things that gets in the way of our really being in our birthright, which is joy. And I think that was quite amazing to me that these obstacles, we didn't want this book to be a kind of fantasy of joy. We really wanted it to be, how do we have joy in the face of the adversities that all of us experience in life?
So, we really tried to look at each of those obstacles and unpack them and understand how they prevent us from returning to this place that, you look at a baby and you see they're in this state of joy, that is our birthright. And then all of these things accumulate in our lives that often make it hard to connect with that fundamental joy, that these two men, I mean, two extraordinary examples of what joy looks like, and not just as a state, but as a fundamental trait. And that's what we were really looking for was, not how do you have joy as a fleeting mental state when you have a nice piece of chocolate cake or you're listening to a good song, but how do you have joy in your life as a trait that you live with day in and day out and can share with others?
Dana Taylor:
And then in looking at the eight pillars, when you look at the world today, is there one that speaks to you?
Douglas Abrams:
Well, yes. Just to say, the eight pillars were four pillars of the heart and four pillars of the mind. And they started with perspective, humility, humor, and acceptance. And they also included forgiveness, gratitude, compassion, and finally generosity. And I think they said it all starts with our perspective. And it's so easy to have a very narrow perspective, especially when we're in fear or in anger, and to look at the world and see ourselves as divided into political parties or into good people and bad people. And they felt like it was essential to step back and take a wider perspective and see the world.
To see the news, for example. They said that we look at the news and we think that this is all that's happening on planet earth, but in fact, it's a very small part of the daily interactions that people are having. The love that parents are giving to children, that people are receiving in hospitals, children in schools. And we look at those bad actors in the news and we say, oh my God, isn't humanity terrible? Aren't we doing just horrible things? And what they wanted us to remember with this wider perspective was that, yes, that all is true and it is tragic and we need to address it, but it is a small part of the truth of what is happening in our world.
Dana Taylor:
And did you find an intersection here with these two giants, with Jane Goodall's message of hope?
Douglas Abrams:
Yeah, absolutely. I think that, really there can be no joy without hope. That hope is for them and for her, was this fundamental understanding about our capacity for transformation and change and our ability to take action in our lives or in our world, to address the challenges. And that we are part of this moral evolution, this is an idea that Jane gave me that was so extraordinary, that we have been on this long human journey together, becoming, as Arch used to say, it takes time to become human. And we've been on this moral evolution throughout human history, and that story is still being written. It's not over, we're a part of it, we each play this small but essential part in the unfolding story of humanity on this planet. And that story is powered by hope.
Dana Taylor:
The Book of Hope was written as a survival guide for trying times, which many Americans have faced this year. Still today, millions across the country are celebrating Thanksgiving. Is there a message of hope from your book that speaks to this moment?
Douglas Abrams:
I think Thanksgiving is such a wonderful opportunity to reflect on all that we have been given, the blessings and bounty that we have and that we get to share. And that ultimately we are part of one shared humanity, one shared America, one shared humanity all around the world. And that when we come together at our tables, even with differing perspectives, differing opinions, different passionate views, that we are part of this one family of humanity, and our strength and our future is in our understanding of that shared humanity and our unity.
Dana Taylor:
Happy Thanksgiving, Douglas. And thank you so much for being on The Excerpt.
Douglas Abrams:
Happy Thanksgiving, Dana. It's such a joy to be with you.
Dana Taylor:
Thanks to our senior producer Kaely Monahan, her production assistance. Our executive producer is Laura Beatty. Let us know what you think of this episode by sending a note to podcasts@usatoday.com. Thanks for listening. I'm Dana Taylor. I'll be back tomorrow morning with another episode of USA TODAY's The Excerpt.
This article originally appeared on USA TODAY:Jane Goodall's legacy of hope | The Excerpt